#18 Vika Pasefika : UCE Movement

In this raw and emotional episode, Vika Pasefika opens up like never before. From growing up in a tough Samoan household to arriving in New Zealand unable to speak English, Vika shares the pain of being bullied—and how that pain turned him into the bully.

Behind the violence was something deeper. Untold trauma. Abuse by someone trusted. Silence that followed him for years.

From fighting in the streets to becoming a father, Vika’s turning point didn’t come easy. Now in Australia, he’s finally facing the demons he once buried.

Today, Vika leads the UCE Movement—mentoring youth, supporting mental health, and running men’s groups focused on healing and suicide prevention.

A powerful conversation about trauma, identity, and what it really takes to break the cycle.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Welcome to Burning Bridges Podcast. My name is Timana. And I'm Renee. We started this podcast through my own life experiences and a journey to healing. I have always been curious of what others have gone through and the moments that defined them.

SPEAKER_06 0:19

Here we believe in the power of storytelling from raw, unfiltered, exclusive conversations with everyday to high-profile people.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Like, follow, subscribe, and turn your notifications on. Let's get into this episode.

SPEAKER_06 0:32

The following episode may contain discussions of sensitive and potentially distressing topics. Viewer discretion is strongly advised. This content is intended for mature audiences and may not be suitable for all listeners for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

SPEAKER_04 0:54

And I'm with the Burning Bridges Podcast.

SPEAKER_06 0:57

Vicka, thanks for joining us here. We're happy to have you in our space today.

SPEAKER_04 1:02

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Yeah, thanks, bro. I've heard a lot about you and what you do with Us Mov movement. And uh yeah, so I wanted to get you on and know more about you and what you do with Us Movement. Before we go to where you are currently, um we've got to go through your background and where you started to get to US Movement. Can we start back where you grew up and go from there, I think?

SPEAKER_04 1:27

Yeah, so I'm I'm originally from Samoa and like everyone else, like every other family gets migrated to a country where we try, you know, we're parents trying to bring you a good life and stuff like that. So I come from a big big family. I think it's about 18. 18 siblings.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

18. So are you 19?

SPEAKER_04 1:50

No, I'm in the number five. Five out of eighteen. Five out of eighteen, yeah. Yeah, okay. So I I think there's like seven, seven sisters, yeah, and the rest is all boys. I think the youngest is twenty two.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Yeah. And put you on the spot, can you name them all? Nah.

SPEAKER_04 2:13

Yeah, so my so I was fine. To my dad's brother from Samoa to New Zealand. Um we we all got separated. Couple went to America, other went back to American Samoa, and then there's a f I think there was only like four of us that went to New Zealand that my my dad's brother took us in.

SPEAKER_06 2:34

They speak, is that like the island away to explain to those people who don't understand that this is what we do? Is when we have a lot of kids, we give them to our brothers or sisters. Obviously, was it because they didn't have any children of their own, or it was just too many kids for them to look after? Is that why?

SPEAKER_04 2:53

Yeah, I I think my dad's brother was just pretty much trying to, I don't know, better a better life for us. You know, my dad's brother sort of took a couple of us just to trying to get a better life, you know, New Zealand, Hawaii, and Hawaii as well.

SPEAKER_06 3:09

And can you remember your childhood? Was it a happy childhood that you had?

SPEAKER_04 3:13

Uh yeah yeah, it was my childhood and some was was good until I landed in New Zealand. Um, but my dad's brother, which is, you know, my dad, he was uh he was a very strict man. Mum was just she was the type of mum that would just try and and save you from all the hiding the the hidings. And yeah, that dad was just yeah, real strict. No, no, no some more in the house. We had to we had to speak English to learn our our English.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

How old were you when you landed in New Zealand?

SPEAKER_04 3:53

I was six, going on seven. Yeah, yeah, yeah, very young. But then my my uncle had to put my date of birth back so I can actually start school in the in early primary. The age difference was different.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

So you were 15 in grade one. First 15 and 20.

SPEAKER_06 4:22

We were talking about that actually when we were when we were talking the other day that that is commonly that is common.

SPEAKER_04 4:29

Yeah, it's real, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 4:32

We had a laugh about it seeing kids on a footy field going, that boy doesn't look like he's underweight.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Yeah, he drives here especially driving the family to the game and dad's in the backseat.

SPEAKER_06 4:49

You couldn't speak, you weren't allowed to speak someone in your household.

SPEAKER_04 4:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 4:54

Was that did that make you sad? Did you want to speak it?

SPEAKER_04 4:58

Not really, because I still can't speak English. I don't know, but English is the hardest, the hardest language. Like honestly, like I can't I can speak other cultures, but I can't, you know, it's it's I sound cool, but it doesn't like it. I think English is like my second sort of language, sort of thing, and I still can't pick it up. You know, reading's a struggle, writing's a struggle, and I still can't do it. Like, you know, I have to say it in my language to reverse it into English. Oh, true. Yeah, yeah. If anyone out there that it's in my shoes, yeah, that's how I do it. That actually makes sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 5:43

Did you do that?

SPEAKER_04 5:45

Some words I don't know, so I have to translate it into my language to actually understand what it means. If not, you just uh Uncle Google. Uncle Google.

SPEAKER_06 5:56

So with your birth parents, did you know them or did you see them a lot while you were in Samoa before you moved to New Zealand?

SPEAKER_04 6:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, mum and dad were still together in Samoa. Yeah, I I think mum and dad didn't didn't really care to be honest. Like they just wanted the you know the best future for for us. So it was pretty much uh, yeah, take them.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

When you moved to New Zealand, were your biological parents still in Samoa? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:23

So my mum had to come with us to New Zealand because of the I don't know, it's it's like taking your kids to the first daycare and then they cry. So that was pretty much like that because we were still young. My older brother was a little bit older than us. I think he was like 10. So he was all sweet, but it was me and my my sisters that was was young at the time that mum had to come over just to see Russin before she flies back to Samoa, which it was only three days. She didn't last long for a week. She wanted to go back home. Yeah, because I don't know, just used to the culture, yeah, the life of the island, less stress.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

What was uh your upbringing like in your school, being in school? What was that like for you being were you in Auckland?

SPEAKER_04 7:10

Yep, uh I was brought up in Dota Who. Jeez, it was hard, eh? To be honest. Yeah, as a kid from the islands that you don't know English, the English barrier was real bad. Like it was as a struggle for me. It was yeah, it was hard. But I don't know, just had to like, you know, just fake it to make it pretty much. If I knew it back then, I would have done it better.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

So for young kids out there in a similar situation, and you just said you would have done it better. What's a better way to do it? As in not being able to speak English? Yeah. So yeah, what what would be a better way than how you actually done it?

SPEAKER_04 7:48

Oh, it's pretty much got forward into the school the following week. So it was like landed there like on the weekend, and then the whole week to get processed to just to settle in. Mum left after before then the week, and then the following Monday you're in school, and then everything is all new. Like every like you look everywhere, it's different, you know. It's in the islands, you know what I mean? It's totally different. So and going into school and not know one single language of English, that was like a struggle. Um I I struggled all the way to college, that's how bad it was. Yeah. And yeah, the English was still didn't get it until I left, until I got kicked out of school and Udahu, Udahu College. View saying it, if I would have done it better, Uncle and Auntie sort of leave us home for a couple months first to understand the culture of New Zealand and understand the you know the English barrier and sort of learn a few words here and then, you know, and and that's what there's a saying in the people in the islands is that your first word is yes and no. So everything was yes and no. So it any anything you say, it was yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

I've heard some stories about that with it. Yeah, I won't even go there, though. Um, any other salmons around that that helped you gel into the culture and and understand a bit better?

SPEAKER_04 9:18

Nah, we didn't didn't have any um salmon teachers in the early primary.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Well, even as in like kids with the other kids, some kids or someone background.

SPEAKER_04 9:28

Oh, yeah, there were kids there with some more backgrounds, but they were born in New Zealand. They had better English than me. And they couldn't even speak Samoon. So, you know, me trying to talk to Samoa to them, it was just their answers was was yes to you know, it's like you know, and it was like it's vice versa, you know. He talks English to me, and I say yes, knowing that you don't know what they're talking about, it's just a yes or a no. If it sounds bad, you just say no.

SPEAKER_06 10:03

Were you bullied for that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:07

I was um yeah, I got bullied in school, like every other kid, every other poly kid that's come from Samoa that don't know much of English, got teased a lot too for my English, uh, you know, the famous word fresh form, you know, and that and that was that was us all the way to college.

SPEAKER_06 10:25

Did you tell your mum and dad that you were struggling in school?

SPEAKER_04 10:29

Yeah, I didn't care. Yeah, just keep going to school.

SPEAKER_06 10:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:33

Yeah. I I think the hardest thing was trying to explain my dad. Something happened in school, and then he'll just say, nah, you're wrong. They're right. So everything that I did in school was wrong. So I became rebellion, and then I became the ugly one. So I started being the bully, stalling, stealing, lying, so all that because my parents didn't listen.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

So are you saying your parents, are you talking about your parents, which is your uncle and auntie that are caring for you? So when you're referring to mum and dad, you're actually referring to your auntie and auntie. Auntie and Uncle, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:10

Yeah, but yeah, pretty much, because it um, I don't know, they they brought me up, so yeah, yeah. I I started calling them uncle and auntie, and then I don't know, a couple years later it was mum and dad. Yeah, so every time you go to school or you get trouble in school, and so you'll ring up your mum and dad, yeah, you're just like okay. But knowing in the back of your head is uh no, it's my auntie and uncle.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

You weren't being listened to when you sort of confronted them with certain issues and problems that you're having at school, and then so you just rebelled against it. Like if I'm not gonna be listened to, well, I might as well be the bully.

SPEAKER_04 11:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Now, if I'm gonna get bullied, I might as well be the bully.

SPEAKER_04 11:47

Yeah. Well, that was the problem though, because when I got bullied, I got hit at home anyway. If I go back to daddy to explain to my dad what happened, because the teacher had told him this has happened, and then I'll get hiding. Because they go, Oh, why don't you beat him up? It's just like, but you told me not to. You know what I mean? It was just like it was two different rules, and you just get confused because when you get bullied, it's like, okay, I'll just stay back and get hit. But as soon as you retaliate it, they're like, Oh, what did you hit him for? And then you get another, you get a hiding anyway. So I thought, stuff it. I'll just beat these kids up anyway. Because I'm gonna get a hiding anyway. So, regardless if I didn't or not, I was still gonna get a hiding for my dad. So, but yeah, but but my dad, he he he's uh good, gives you good hiding, so like like every other island kid. That's you know, that's sort of understand their ways of bringing up in the culture in the Sahamoan way. They they know it's when you get a hiding, like it's a man hiding. It's I don't know, we call it fussy, but yeah, this one here was is more than a fussy, it's like a beat you up.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

Were you into sports in that high school?

SPEAKER_04 13:02

Yeah, you were talented in sports? Rugby, but I've I've fighting was my was my was my thing. Fighting made me who I was, made me happy, protected me. Uh knowing that I couldn't hit my parents, but I could hit I could hit other kids and it made me feel good because you take it on in them, the stuff that your parents do do to you, how how they beat you up, you you you visualize that when you're bullying the other kids. So bully got bullied and ended up being the bully.

SPEAKER_06 13:33

Which is like so common. Gets to a point where someone's had enough. And so when you say you're fighting, you you you mean like fighting, brawling, fighting other kids and other how often did you do that?

SPEAKER_04 13:46

Every day after school. I don't know if anyone that knows who that knows me, like that was that was my style in school. The bus stop, and uh who, Sturgis, Sturgis Park, where the Scorpion home feels are, yeah, out in where we were, just wherever. You know, if I could get there to to get into a fight, I'll I'll get there. Gangs back in my time was real like it was up there and it was just every day after school.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

You roll with any of the gangs back then?

SPEAKER_04 14:18

I never got myself into a gang that that made people look at me in a bad way. I was the I was I I was smarter. I was a smarter guy.

SPEAKER_06 14:28

What's your advice for kids who get bullied now or to to hit back? Is do you still stand by that? If someone's getting bullied and gets into a fight and gets punched up, is your advice to you know hit them back?

SPEAKER_04 14:41

Um, I I wouldn't say hit them back. Like self-defense is it's the word that that takes place now here in the world. It's like what the cops use is self-defense. Unless you're getting really like beaten. Back in the day where my coaches used to say you do you do not use a sport to go and bash people up. But sometimes there's a leeway to that, like not bash people up, but it's protecting yourself, like self-defense is.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

I think what you're saying there too is you're defending yourself, but once that person's on the ground, you don't keep into them. That's when it's a bashing.

SPEAKER_04 15:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

Did things get worse for you, like getting into crime? Did you get patched up in the gangs? Or you've always been on the sidelines with it?

SPEAKER_04 15:25

Styline. I was just I was just I was smart. I was just I wanted to, but then it's like then the life, your life changes. You see all the you know, all the boys that's joined back in the days, they get this, they get that, but then six months later, bro, where are you? You know, they get locked up. And I think that was the one thing that sort of I was scared of. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

You saw the path where it leads to.

SPEAKER_04 15:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

And you didn't want to go there. I didn't want to go there. You didn't end up there.

SPEAKER_04 15:53

Yeah, yeah. Or like it's the the fighting was I I do it all the time, and then you get locked up. But that's just getting locked up in the cell, like in the cell, and yeah, you're there until your court case.

SPEAKER_06 16:05

I was fine with that until you ring her. I rolled.

SPEAKER_04 16:15

We've been through a lot, yes.

SPEAKER_06 16:16

So when did you meet your wife? How old were you since we're talking about your beautiful Gemini?

SPEAKER_01 16:22

We've got Gemini here with us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:25

Jesus, we were we were young and sort of fell into a well, most teenagers now call it love. You know, I love her. She didn't really knew what I was up to, you know, this the stuff that uh I got up to. When I met her, I was homeless. I was living in in the in the city, did crime there and just trying to get by day by day. Yeah, managed to find a a small little dungeon in Pontenby there for 90 bucks a week. Sort of just lived there and and then just trying to get myself out that space. And then knowing that I know that she had had a good life too. So I was trying to get myself out of there and then and uh moved into Avondale with my um my uncle, who is my auntie. I should laugh his name is Chris, but yeah, we call him Christine.

SPEAKER_06 17:21

Christine.

SPEAKER_04 17:24

Sorry, Auntie.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

Sorry, Auntie. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

It's just how you said it, that's all.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

I was just uh thinking when you're talking, I just want to like a couple questions that I want to ask. I'll start with the negative. What was what was a really dark moment in your upbringing or something that really stuck with you that you found it hard to get through?

SPEAKER_04 17:54

Jeez, that's a tough question. I think uh like I said to you is that my dad never never took us serious, always thought that we lied. We um we we were liars because we did crimes and we steal, and times that that you tell the truth, and he'll say that you're that you're lying. So you get a you get you get you get more hidings as soon as you lie, and that sort of stops. Bringing up telling the truth it was more like a you have to tell lies to get yourself out of trouble. And I think that's you know, that they had always did that. And then the hardest thing is when I was doing all that shit and then they're f Because Mum and Dad were strict, like physically and mentally. And church for them was like damn down Sunday go to church, Sunday school. When I didn't listen before I got sent back to Sahamoa, you're gonna go to the because I was an altar boy at the time, you gotta go to father's house, priest's house. So they used to drop me off every Friday after school, so I don't get up to do mischief on the weekend. Because we used to, you know, my brothers used to sneak out on the garage and we used to follow and you know, just all the stuff that you do as a kid, you know, you follow your big your older brother. So he would drop me off every Friday. Yeah, it's uh fucking um Yeah, so within that three years before I got sent back home, um something that I never got over with until um a couple of years ago that I had to work on myself without knowing that um all the shit that I used to do, I realized that um the thing that made me who I was then um because of this man, you know, the breeze that just constantly just rained me for three years inside the the parish's house, the the house where we um stayed in on the weekend like Friday to Sunday after church and then I'll go home. And uh the the the the hardest thing is when knowing that I was like, okay, I'll tell them dad. And I tell mum, I I tell mom first because dad never never listened to us. So I thought, okay, I'll tell mum. I'll let mom live because mum always stuck up for us and she always protected us if we got to hide. So I said, I'll tell mum. I told mum and mum lost her shit. She just fucking she gave me the worst hiding, and then dad walked in and fucking it was over. He just beat the shit out of me saying that I was lying. You don't talk to like you don't tell lies about it, about the man of the church. He's the man of God, and you know, and it was just that there just broke me by for so many years, like even meeting my wife, and just all like I just all never dealt with it until I moved here to Australia and and just trying to work.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

Just be the fucking shit dead shit has been not knowing that that all the shit that I went through was from it was from there, you know.

SPEAKER_04 22:15

And just having my wife, you know, it just she's been there, she's been a rock for me and just stuck, just stuck by me. Just stuck by me. Because you know, the the thing of being being there's a difference between being sexual um being being sexual harassment and being raped is just totally different. You know, I don't know if you can get over it being by sexual um arrest from someone, but being raped from another man, it's fucking something that it's it's so hard to deal with for so many years.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

Because you you bring that man into your life and then you introduce him to your kids, and he comes into your house and annoying that fuck man like this dude did shit to me and not even like she didn't even know about it until until I opened up a couple years ago and just having me talk about it, um it's like it's I I feel I feel good inside that I let it out and let people know that fuck man, like if you're going through that shit, but talk about it because I know that was hard for me to try to talk about and trying to with this fucking bullshit called you, you know, your your you know you need for forgive them and you need to fucking work on yourself. I did all that, I worked on myself and still still didn't know that.

SPEAKER_04 23:51

Fuck it's still it's still hit me. So things, you know, forgiving them was the hardest thing. It was the fucking hardest thing I've ever done in my life is forgive the man that actually made your life fucking shit, and then not knowing that your dad freaking created the shit. You know, my my father did this, you know, and then you have another man that actually not sexual abuse you, but fucking actually raped you for three years, and then you're just trying to tell your parents about it, they just brush it back like a duck's back and not not not even have to like they didn't even stack up for me. They rather beat me up for saying something that was true and knowing them that it was a lie that's coming out of my mouth, but it was true.

SPEAKER_05 24:43

So don't be sorry. Don't be sorry.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

We're we're sorry you had to go through that as a young child, and we appreciate you opening up, sharing that with us. And this is all to help other people out there that have gone through a similar thing as yourself, and that's what this is this is for. Um I just I I couldn't imagine what it would be like for a young person that's got no way you've you're opening up, telling the truth, and you just you're stuck there, you have no control of your environment. You're and that's what I mean. Young children have no control of their environment, where they're put to, taken to, and they get put through fucking hell, and that's your story, you got put through fucking hell for so many years, and I fully understand why you your your pain and your anger that you just go out and fight the world because no one listens to you.

SPEAKER_04 26:27

Man, at times that my wife used to bring my dad's name. Man, I just remembering that anger I get that the the the I just get pissed off for some reason. When she used to bring my dad's name up, I just get angry. Like it just and then now it just like all makes sense, you know, because uh you don't know, you know, like I just wish I knew things back then. Like what I know now, you know, I just wish I knew it back then because the the English for me was real bad. And having that done to me, I thought it was normal. I really did. I really thought that was like that, that was the that was it, that was the life. That that's what you have to do. But then bribing you for money, you know, because the bastard used to live 10 bucks near the bedside table. So when I used to walk in, I thought it was a test if I was gonna steal it. Because I don't know if he was talking to my dad about me stealing stuff, robbing people. So he used to leave 10 bucks there. And I never touched it. I didn't realize that when all this shit happens, that money was it was uh what we call now is bribing. You know, I'll give you this if you don't tell. 10 bucks, 20 bucks, and then 50 bucks, and then a hundred bucks. It just got to a stage that I had money, and then I used to buy stuff for my brothers, and then my dad will find out who's buying all this stuff, and my brother goes, Oh, Vika. And he goes, Where are you getting this money from? Oh, father. Why is he giving you all this money? He goes, Oh, because I do the drawers in the house. And he'll go tell father. I don't remember that day. Fuck, I just wanted to kill him, mate, bro. My dad went there on the Friday. And he stood there, bro. Dad said to him, Yo, you give him money. The fucking priest was like, Oh no, I don't give him money. Like, will you get the money? And I'm just like, I stood there, I go, You fuck man.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

Oh, it's just like, and they had just back tainted me, kicked me on the ground near the car, just gave me the and he just stood there, bro.

SPEAKER_04 28:55

He just stood there, and then dad goes, get in the house, went in the house and like acted like nothing happened.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

What's a young kid meant to do in a situation like that?

SPEAKER_04 29:27

I don't know, I was gonna say this shit, but hey It's all about burning Bridges Abra Just bridging that gap between what happened then and then what you can do now. You know what I mean? Like There's times I always think that which I didn't do, you know, like like just just stabbing him, you know, and and when he was sleeping, but yeah, it's like you think, oh what's gonna happen then, you know? Like I I'd rather go to jail than having my dad beating the shit out of me. You know, I just like just constantly just I was thinking every Friday I just didn't want to go. I try to sneak out, and he used to lock the door, and the door used to be the the ones that you can lock from the inside for the key, so you couldn't even get out. The house was fully locked, so you couldn't even get out. When you go to bed, you have to stay in, stay in there. And the shit thing is, bro, is that there were two priests that are living in there. One was down the other side of the house, and he lives on it. Like the house was massive. It was a big, big house. And the lady used to come in every Saturday, the admin lady, and she always asked me about things, and then it's like that's mum and dad's friend. I really wanted to tell her, but then knowing that the island way is just like backstab, they always gossip. So I didn't want her to go and tell my parents that I said this because then I would have got another hiding. Oh, why are you telling everyone? You know, and that was the hardest thing for me, is just keeping my mouth shut because I didn't want to get another hiding.

SPEAKER_06 31:41

How old were you when you first went there?

SPEAKER_04 31:45

Thirteen. Yeah, thirteen, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 31:55

I'm sorry, V.

SPEAKER_04 31:58

Yeah. And I know, I know, man, I know there's there's a lot of brothers that went to that church and man, and and they know they they they know it happened because when he got when he got relocated to to Tea Two, there was another parish in his in Tea to he got relocated, uh relocated there. And he did it to the same he he he did it again to a kid that actually knew that knew what was wrong and what was right. So, and and this kid he was 14 and he said he was gonna go tell the the bishop, ring the cops, and then the next day he he gassed himself in the car. And then everything that was fucked because it was my name, eh, that was in there. They're the first people that ring that that he when he passed away, they rang me and I was just like all this is just like I was thinking, fuck. And I'd like I'd really wanted to say something, but I thought, no, this is just not time for me to to be open up and to tell what what you know what happened to me. And you know what, it it's good that he's gone, to be honest, like because someone some you know someone else would have done it. And I could actually like I I could sit here and say that because I can say it. If I didn't do it, or if he didn't like if he he's done it, if he didn't do that, someone else would have done it for him. Because he was like he was a fucking bad man. What do they call it here? Pedophiles, hey is it pedophiles?

SPEAKER_06 34:00

Yeah it's and thank you for sharing that with us, bro.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

And that's where I'm fucking I I'm really thinking of that because sexually abused by our dad. You know and just thinking him for my sisters knowing dad's sexually abusing them and what you went through and it just it really hurts me.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

What young children go through and they got no way out. No.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

And this is what I bring to light for people out there that we want to give these people a way out, that there is a way out, and there is a better way in from your story and how you got out of it, how you endured it and how you had to just endure it, but throughout the years you've learned there is a better way. So you got sent to um Samoa. Was that because of your um you know, retaliation from what you been through? Yeah. And they couldn't handle it?

SPEAKER_04 35:52

I ran with uh I I ran away from home. Yeah. I ran away from home. And then um my brother um came out looking for me, my second older brother. Um, he came out looking for me and and I was out in Devonport in Takapuna, living at people's, living in people's house, one after house to another. And I was I was young then, I was 15, 16. Uh we were away from home that long that the cops couldn't find us. So my dad, it was my uncle, my auntie, dad and mum declared that we thought we were dead because they couldn't find us. Because my brother came out looking for me because I just took off. I said I couldn't, I I couldn't, I just couldn't do it anymore. So we just so we ran away. I I ran away and then my brother sort of found me and then he stayed with me just to make sure I was I was okay. We were away that long, yeah, that my mum and dad thought they actually thought we were dead. And I don't know, there were the couple of the boys from the church, but somehow they found us out in Devonport. Yeah, they were saying that man, everyone's looking for you. It's like your mum and dad think you guys are dead. Yeah, we had to come home. And as soon as I soon as I got home, fucking kids who gets to blame me. And then I get the hiding. I got the hiding because I dragged my brother into it. And then I got sent to Samoa, and then my brother got sent to to America. Going back to the islands, I think it did me good, but my real dad, I thought wrong about him as well. He was as bad as my uncle. He'll just beat me up every day because I failed. You're supposed to go to New Zealand to do this. You're supposed to do a good life, you're supposed to go to school. And every day I plantation sent me out to the plantation for six, seven hours, come back home, cook the food. If I don't bring food back from the plantation, I'll get a I'll get the ammo. The humble is what you carry your food on, and this thing is massive. It would just like smack over your head, beat you up until it's broken. And it's just it was like that, like constantly, just bad. And the way I got I got back to New Zealand is that we had a member of the church that was living next door. He used to see like he he he moved back to the islands, and him and my dad used to my uncle used to communicate. And he used to tell him that what my dad used to do to me. So my uncle felt sorry for me and brought me back. And then knowing that that's what he done, he's he does the same thing too. And then he's called my dad. Why are you hitting him? Fuck you, you guys are the same man. And it's it's hard for me just to with my kids too, like you do what your parent does to you, you do it to your kids. And that was the hardest thing for me when I had my kids, it was trying not to be that person.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

Repeat it.

SPEAKER_04 38:58

Repeat it. And every time I try and do it or smack them, it's like a flashback. You just like you go, oh fuck, you know, you you can't do that. You know, that now is it's assault. You know, you hit your kids, it's assault. But yeah, it was real hard for me not to like I I hit my kids, but I didn't hit them the how I used to. I used to I smack their bum, you know, for discipline. But you know, I just think that stays stuck to me is my wife, because she helped me heaps. She used to tell me off, you know, you don't don't do that to the kids. And it's a you know, it's it's a reminder of of who you actually are.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

Part two of that question was, and it's probably a good leg way to to shift this at the moment. Is there a good moment in your upbringing that you can remember?

SPEAKER_04 39:53

Yeah. Uh every second Sunday, yeah. We have a family feed at home and all the families comes together. Christmas, never never never ever had birthdays, I could say. Can't remember singing happy birthday or have a candle. I think the most birthday I ever had is when I met my wife on my 18 and my 21st. And birthdays every other year. And she knows that I I hate birthdays because we never got it. Never took told time, like took time to tell her about it. I still haven't. I just hated it because it just brings back shit times.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

And your brother that moved over to America, have you did you see him much? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:30

Yeah. Yeah, he um back here now. Oh, he's back in New Zealand. He was there for two years.

SPEAKER_06 40:36

Were you close to your siblings? Like, did you talk to them about what was going on? Did they get you through or believe you and all of that?

SPEAKER_04 40:43

Yeah, my older brother, yeah. Not my older brother, my second older brother, George. He's he was my he was my lifeline, he was my safe. Yeah, he's he's always been there for me. Like everything that I do here was first first one there. The day I commit suicide, George was the first one there. And he'll just drop everything. Anything I'll get up to in trouble, he'll take the rap.

SPEAKER_01 41:05

And then say you meet Gemini, your wife, she helps you with a lot of your healing and just trying to get through life basically and survive.

SPEAKER_04 41:16

It's much as for me to hard for me to say this, because Samoa is my culture. I was pretty much so. When I met her, I pretty much is brought up as a in the moldy way.

SPEAKER_01 41:28

A moldy, the moldy ways. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because of Gemini being moldy, she's moldy.

SPEAKER_04 41:34

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it was just like she showed me a lot of things that I didn't know. I learned a lot of stuff from her. You know, she taught me places that I've never been. So yeah. So she taught me a lot of things about life that I didn't know. And I just wish that my dad sort of, my dad sort of took time to learn about the culture because he just hated her. You know, I saw stuff that he didn't take time to learn. And every time I used to bring her, I would get a hiding in front of her. I'll go home trying to take her home to see my my parent. I wouldn't I wouldn't even step foot on the driver. He'll come out and beat me in front of him. Gave me a hiding all the way to in my 20s, eh? 27, 28. So he pretty much just owned my kids when they were born. No encouragement, no nothing. His muckles were five until he started taking us in. It was a hard thing for me to deal with, knowing that you have to tell your kids that you're that you're called, you know what I mean? Like that's your grandfather there. You know, and and my kids do. My kids treasure that, treasure those last moments before, you know, before he passed.

SPEAKER_01 42:43

And a change of heart for him to want to get to know and accept Gemini and your and your children. Yeah. Was that because he was sick and he knew he was dying? Is that why he wanted to have that repair that relationship? Nah, I no.

SPEAKER_04 42:59

I I think he just grew. He just grew out of it. And I think that's what my father realized. Oh, I'm getting old. I'm not getting any younger. And when he did finally meet his mock or it was just like, to me, it was like, I should have been there from day one. Trying to tell him me how to raise my kids. It's just like he didn't do a good job with us, you know what I mean? Like, it's like he was almost telling me off for hitting my kids, man. I'm like, he used to bash us with a broom. Honestly, when my dad used to give me hiding, he'd tie me up like a pig. There's no word of a lie. He tied me out for three days. Slept in front of in front of the living room near the fireplace. Three days. My brother used to come from school and feed me. That's how bad the hidings were. Bad that his belt used to break the buckle. And then he'll ask my younger brother to go grab the broom until the broom breaks. And he'll look around for something else. Aunties used to come over and try and stop him, and he just there was no stop.

SPEAKER_06 44:02

Did you ever forgive him?

SPEAKER_04 44:04

No. I still haven't. I didn't have time. You know, didn't have time. I just I I I loved him for who he was at the end. I I loved him for him just just realizing, oh shit, I should have done this years ago. The separation, like I said, you know, in school with the with the culture, it sucks that your parents were doing that too. Separating the culture. You know, you you've come into a land that is not even yours and don't even take time to actually mingle with other cultures and understand the culture. That's how we learn people is by being present and just taking time to know their their culture. But there's no difference from our culture. We love food, we love our family, we love to have a sense of humor, we laugh. You know what I mean? Like we all do, you know, we all love mocking people, and we take the piss out of it, you know, and they think it's for us it's funny, you know, that's our sense of humor.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

All indigenous cultures are like that, no matter where they are around the world, they're all all the same, like you said. I think they're the three main ingredients with it all.

SPEAKER_06 45:20

You know, you and your wife would always go and see your dad. Like it's like you never gave up wanting to have a relationship with him. No, no, even though you knew you were gonna go get there and he wouldn't accept her, and still it was her, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:37

It was her, just loving for who he is. She's always encouraged to go and to go and see him. And no, I think it the stuff that I don't listen. She goes, go see your dad, and then I'll get a holding and she go, I see it, Togi.

SPEAKER_01 46:03

He was just full fist, he was just like, Oh, I was embarrassed, but did you ever like get to a did you ever go back at him or did you just cop it?

SPEAKER_04 46:14

I I was in our culture we can't. You know, you have to respect your eldest, your your yeah, yeah, I understand. Your elders, and you know, and respect your parents, you know, and no matter what. No matter what.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

What what year did you move over here?

SPEAKER_04 46:34

2007.

SPEAKER_01 46:35

So you moved here. Did you know people here?

SPEAKER_04 46:39

My brother was living here, my younger brother. I love New Zealand, but I call this home now. Australia pretty much saved me. Australia has given me the life that I couldn't ever ever have it back home unless I was still doing what I was doing back home. I wasn't cutting it, you know, and anyway they do it was just dealing, and I was a declector and and total all the gangs, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

What did you get into when you moved to Australia?

SPEAKER_04 47:06

So I I I boxed when I first came here. I boxed um for Shamrock. And then um the owner of Shamrock got me a a concrete job as just uh just a labour until I just got I don't just got sick of fighting, eh? Just I was still doing it, but I just got lucky, it got to a stage that when you get you you get good money, but it's not enough to cover when you get injured. But I still was I was still dealing with what I was dealing with what I had home, you know, because I pretty much brought it from home back to Australia. But I still haven't dealt with it.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

Mentally, you're talking about? And physically, yeah. Yeah, and physically, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:42

Yeah. So when I came here, I was just the same thing. Beating people up, getting arrested. I don't talk, you know. I just yeah, my wife knows. I was a guy that just uh boomed me and I and then that's how it got me getting arrested here every time. Pepper spray, taser.

SPEAKER_06 48:07

What was the point of you just going, this is enough?

SPEAKER_04 48:11

Just the kids, eh? To be honest. Just seeing the kids, seeing my kids. If you didn't want your kids to be in the gang, we moved here.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

You're in Australia and you're getting into a bit of troubles with fighting and that, getting banned from clubs, getting arrested. And you said sort of the turning point was your was your kids. What was that moment? Do you remember the moment and the turning turning point on like this is enough or to change my life around? Do you remember that moment and how did you do it? Was it over time? Yeah, was it like chipped it off over time? Yeah, you know, it wasn't just a change straight up, like a lot of things it takes time to to get there. Yeah. But okay, was it like a matter of years? Was it like within the year?

SPEAKER_04 49:02

No, no, yeah, it was we were talking about five, well, very long time. I still had to process it, still had to go through it.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

What type of things did you do to to slowly make the changes over those years?

SPEAKER_04 49:17

Cutting things that I was doing. The the drugs and drinking was a real that was a it was it was a bad habit. Because as soon as I drink, I'm out. Like I'm I'm just I'm gone. There was no control as much as you say to yourself, I'm just gonna have a couple. A couple turns into eight o'clock in the morning the next day. So I just had to cut, cut the drinking, stop going out, and just like through through over time we we slowly did it. It wasn't hard, I tell you that. Like there is times that we will argue about it. I can't do this. Because I I was I I want it. I need to go here. I need to go out. Oh, there's something off, something's on. And she used to like my wife used to get pissed off. Nah, you always say that, because you always end up doing this, and then you end up doing this, and then you end up getting locked up. It's a pattern, you know. It's it's like that, you know, the circle of violent, you know, it never breaks. Yeah, so we just slowly worked worked on it. And then I think the hardest thing was not her knowing what my past was, what happened to me. She didn't know that. And I kept that for a very long time. The only one that knew it was my brother. I had to work that on my own, like slowly working on my own. It's by seeing specialists, just having doctor's appointment to get referred, to get help. And then as soon as I get help, get your 10 sessions for free, and then you start paying. As soon as my last session, I'm out because I can't I couldn't afford it. And then there were some places that I had to go, like a couple hubs in Kalowanja. There's a couple health hubs there that you go and see um psychologists there for free for 10, 10 sessions for free. As soon as like those 10 sessions, it never talks about how bad it is. It's always the same thing every day. Every time we go in there. It's the same thing. It's it's sort of like it repeats itself. Oh, so what we like, what was today like? Uh so how did you deal with that? But never talked about what um let's go back. The cause of it? Yeah, let's go back here. Never got to that until we until you come to the last session, and then you'll go, uh, next week we'll we'll talk about your childhood. Just like you know, and by then there's 180 bucks. I remember it was I think the cheapest one was 80 bucks. But 80 bucks was still expensive then, you know? Especially the jobs, the job I had, and then 180 bucks, it was just like, nah, I couldn't afford it. So as soon as you get to that stage, I was like, well, I'll go back to the doctor. And then it's like, oh, what happened to this? Oh no, it's he wasn't relatable. And I think the only thing that sort of made changes when I was seeing a guy in Yandina. He was, I got a refer from the doctor, but he was like a like a spiritual man, like a like a healer.

SPEAKER_05 52:28

Healer, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:29

Went and saw him and became a mate, and he owned a furniture company, and and I started working for him. Yeah, and he just talked about a lot about it in the trial and about past trauma, about what happened. And in that, I think him made me realize that the stuff that I went through, I had to let it go. Because uh what he said that the more you think about it, and every time you see something, it it triggers you. And I don't freaking know exactly what he was talking about. Because every time my wife brings my dad's name up, I get triggered. I get angry. And then we talk about other sexual stuff, I get, you know, I get just get I know this this different feeling that you get, you just like you just want to break something, you know, put holes on walls. But that that took a long time, and I started working for the for the man, and yeah, he taught taught taught me a lot of things. I think he's the that he's the one that told me you gotta forgive this person, like you have to forgive him for you to move on. So if I didn't forgive this person, you're gonna stuck in that circle, you're gonna stuck in that trauma. And what I've learned from him is that trauma will always be there. No matter how hard your upbringing is, and every time you get triggered, and that's you have to find a way like a tool or a key to overcome that that anxiety, that trauma. And I think I've done well through the years. Um like you know, trying to stay away from that. About four years ago, I I fell back into it. The drinking started coming back. I was jumping in my car driving. Just fuck just drive and ring her the next day. I can't find my keys. Where are you? I don't know. It was like you blank and he just drives somewhere. And it was bad. It was real bad that I thought I was gonna lose her. Like it was constantly every every week. I got went back into it drinking, driving.

SPEAKER_01 54:50

Is it when you start drinking your trauma comes up, arises to the surface? Yeah, and then you just yeah, so then you just try and numb it more by drinking more?

SPEAKER_04 55:02

I had a real bad habit of locking myself in the garage and just drinking. That was real bad. And then just jump in the car and drive off.

SPEAKER_01 55:11

What's your mindset or just prior to you drinking? Are you are you saying to yourself, I need a drink so I can get rid of my thoughts? Or are you drinking because you wanna have fun?

SPEAKER_04 55:25

Like, but you don't even think about it. You say, Oh, I'm just gonna have a drink. Yeah? And you don't like it, it doesn't come to you through until you actually piss. And then you start thinking about shit that that doesn't that wasn't even there in the first place. It just pops up and goes, and then you like fuck this and oh that just a whole lot of stuff just comes back and you that and you're just like no fuck this and you get in the car and drive off or run somewhere, or walk, or just I don't know, just as long as I'm not near the house, I think that's that was weird. As long as I'm not near the house, I was fine. But I I that's most of the majority of the time I used to just blank out to be honest, and just and then find yours find myself at a random spot and not knowing what actually happened.

SPEAKER_01 56:23

You're at the Sunshine Coast, and then you find yourself in northern New South Wales. So it's not like just a drive where you're just going down the road, you're driving for hours.

SPEAKER_04 56:34

Yeah, yeah. I'd rather get and and like get wasted and and do something stupid, and you wake up in the next morning like I'm locked up again. That was a repentant pattern for me. Going back to to how I was helping myself and then coming back to the last couple of years was shit. I had to put myself back in that circle again. Sometimes I I couldn't tell her things, but then now it's like I can actually talk to her without me getting worked up, without me getting triggered, getting angry. I can actually talk to her, uh this is well ring him. The bro, James was my he was the my lifeline.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

Is that the healer guy?

SPEAKER_04 57:18

No, this is a old mate actually passed away a couple of years ago, and his son runs his business now. So he might he remind me of people back in Tonanga, uh the tarot cards and stuff, because all her families are into the spiritual thing, and when I met him, he's just like all his houses full of those dream things and dream catches, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 57:42

Rocks are there, crystals and lights are dim too. What's going on here?

SPEAKER_04 57:51

Trauma. Calling the spirit, but he was good because uh it was relatable. Yeah, he told me things that what happened to him, but it was in the family too. Like he said, it happened in his family. He knows exactly how I feel, what I went through, and he was pretty bang on point too, like just bringing stuff up. It just made oh fuck, exactly how I felt. He taught me stuff to how to release the pain and the anger and then turn it into a positive and then keep it. Don't he said he always said to me, when you think about something that's gonna trigger you, turn off, yeah, turn off.

SPEAKER_01 58:37

I think where you're saying with that, and I started to do this myself when I started to have negative thoughts, and and I trained myself to do this that I'd have say at least five things I could draw from at any given time, no matter where I w was. About things that I love and like that I really love. And it could be like the sun, the sunrise, it could be beautiful trees, nature, it could be thinking about family or grandchildren, you know, my children, or a really significant moment switches my mind straight away from that negative thought, and I just bring myself straight out of it. What was yours? What what was something for you that was it the healer that was explaining this to you? Yeah, and what what was his examples and what was yours? What what did you bring from it?

SPEAKER_04 59:28

I used to think about fighting to get my mind out of it. I used to think about just this one moment that always sticks to me when David Tour versus Lennox Lewis, and I had I had the the hopes of David Tour winning, and I still had that moment there, and that moment was good, it was a good moment because my wife was there too at the Bab Tavern. And when he lost, and I just remember the the positive of him representing our people, I I took it as we all won. He won that by making it in the top. So I always think about that. So I I think about fighting like even my cunt versus Jerome Lebelle take a 2001. Those are the moments, you know, I I think about because it it makes me happy. Yeah. Sounds weird.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:26

It's nothing even personal about G. It's about someone else's um happy story.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:32

Because that makes me happy. Because they were my role models. They're the ones that looked up, I looked up to, you know, Mark, Ray Siffle, you know, David Tour. Those those were the the people I I I I I appreciate in my life, you know, because they they made me, you know, want to fight. And and then, you know, if I feel like I'm gonna if if I lost a fight and go, oh well, less let's um race effort one. You know what I mean? Like it's just like I always think about that the the the positive side of that. I just sharing this moment, I think it was in the month's time after seeing the bro, and then he was telling me about this happy space when you when trauma comes back. I I still remember the day that I was driving, I rang someone, and then someone said ring 13, 11, 14, like the the suicide line. And I rang like I've like uh it was coming and I was getting angry, I was getting worked up. And the people that was on that suicide line, I said, hello, what's your name? Where are you? What are you doing? That made me even more pissed off because they didn't have the like the correct question to to help with the trigger that I was going through, and I just lost it. And I was on the highway, and I wanted to drive the car into the pole and then she rang out of nowhere, and I was just crying, like I just couldn't control myself. I was in the car, I was sweating, and I was shaking, and she was just like trying to calm me down, and I just didn't know. At the moment I thought about something that triggered me, and then it just went over above that everything just all came in. Like the flashback and the one flashback that came back, it was yeah, right from the from the priest. And it was that moment that was real that that that hurt, that anger. And that was the one thing that that made it even worse. When the knowing that I was only thinking about that something small, and it just turned into hell break loose, like everything all coming, and it's that one bit that I always every now and then I just like try and not think about and then just think about something else. Yeah, I was just thought I'd share that because that driving was just like yeah, I've just I just remember that day I was that day I wanted to drive the car into the pole.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:24

Have you had a lot of suicidal thoughts?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:26

Yeah, all the time. I tell her, and she goes, Oh, fucking stupid, is it?

SPEAKER_06 1:03:33

What good's that's gonna do?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:35

I don't want to be here with me.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:37

I want to talk about the cycle of your trauma and not talking about it with your wife, and she's trying to help you not knowing what's really going on, and the moment that you were honest with her, how did that change you guys?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:53

Brought us closer. I think the thing that really brought us closer is when I was when I talked about the the confusion of sexuality that I brought a couple of years ago, I talked about it because for so many years I didn't know if I was gay or or bi because all the shit that happened to me. So I was yeah, so many years I was confused. Like I didn't like people always look at me and oh yeah, fucking tough dude, whatever. But I'm just normal as everyone else, but I'm going through shit that people don't under people don't know, you know, unless you ask. So I was dealing with that for so long. Like for a very long time. I actually didn't tell her she had to watch it. And then she asked, we sat down and she asked me, oh, is that why it is? Or is that why I said yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:45

So when you say sit down and watch it, did you have a recording of you talking about it? That was our podcast, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That was the one you went back.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:55

Back home.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:55

Back home.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:56

Yeah, it was good because I that that I needed to get it done there. Because that's where the story was. It's back at, you know, back home.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:04

Because this is a powerful story that you shared with us last week. And before we get to that bit, talk about when you when you shared it with uh your wife, Gemini, what was her response? Like you said, that made you closer. But how how did she respond to to that, learning that about you?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:26

She was hurt. I I think I'm not gonna speak for her, but I'm just gonna speak how her or her reaction, yeah. Yeah, I think she was broken and realized that all this stuff that I was going through was under our roof with our kids, with her, and are not even talking about it. You know? And like don't get me wrong, people that go through stuff like this that gets raped by other people, they become other predators, bro. They end up being the predator. Because they don't know how to deal with it. They they they don't know how to cope with the with the shit that that they've been through, you know? All I could say is that I know a guy that has happened to him, he's a pedophile. You know, and then that's it's shit. If you don't have the support, I wouldn't say the system, because the system right now is just freaking terrible. If you don't have the loved ones or the or or your sub the people to support you through your journey and through what you're going through, fuck bro, you could be someone totally different. And I could actually sit here and and tell you honestly, because I could be someone else right now. Like I could be someone else that I couldn't even expect if I didn't get the help that I didn't get. You know what I mean? Jeez, I didn't let that one out, didn't I?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:54

So you went to New Zealand and you you done this podcast over there, and that was the first time you shared your story to anyone, let alone in public. She didn't know about it. And you were with your wife at the time too.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:08

Yeah. Been together 26 years.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:12

While you were there, you'd done something that's very, very powerful. Was this before you done the podcast? You you done that or after? When you went there, you went to forgive the person, and it had to be, you had to go home for this to happen. Yeah. So can you share that story with us? Because I just find this so for myself personally, too, so hard to do.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:39

To for for an abuser, for the predator.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:44

And you've gone and done that. Share that story for us.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:48

So we drove to um to GI, just where he was buried. And yeah, I just had to the emotion, everything that's that was there. It's hard to explain. Because I didn't want to. But I had to forgive him for me to move on. And then not holding that. I wouldn't say his guilt. His guilt, eh? Like I couldn't carry something that's happened to me and then try and try and forget it. It's always gonna be there. The stuff that happened to me, it's not gonna go away. It's always here. And I I like honestly, as much as I sit here and talk about it, some days I do think about it. But then I just have to go, fucking new day today. Gotta move on. So I yeah, I had to forgive him. Like, if I didn't forgive him, I would have just I would have just kept going the circle that I was going and get angry for no reason, treating her like shit, talking down to her. Because there there's multiple times I just I lash out on her and call her names that words that come out of my mouth that I don't even know that I know. Bring your work stuff here. That's how you talk to your workmates. It's not, it's just me thinking about it and get angry and just lash out. So I really, really had to consider me knowing that old mate saying that for you to move on. This is your self-healing. This is you healing yourself as you have to forgive whether the perpetrator or you have to forgive him. If you don't, then you just gonna constantly, every time that you see something, it's gonna trigger you. And then now I see all this stuff about kids and pedophile. I think about it, but it's just like happy. I think about other things. I think about how my kids are now, my muckles. So forgiveness was hard. It trust me, it is it was hard at that time. Still now, still now, I still think about it. Was it the right choice? Why did I forgive a man that did something real bad to me, and still having to forgive my father?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:18

It's conflicting with you, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 1:10:21

Yeah. And I didn't even have time. Like I could go and say forgive to my dad, but my dad knows where he is he stays. My dad knows his place. I think my dad always knows what he's done was wrong.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:34

I don't want to speak for you, but the way I see it is you've forgiven the priest, but you can't forgive your father because you told your father what was happening in that time. You go to hiding for it and you put you back there. That's the that's just me thinking, or maybe that's why it's really hard for you to forgive maybe your father because of that, because he knew you you said it to him, and you were ignored. Because I I I have that with certain things in my life too. People knew, and nothing was done, and it's hard to give even forgive those people that knew that done nothing about it. So I I really understand that. When you're in the cemetery, how long were you in the cemetery for? Because I know you you went there and you you had your moment where you had a cry and all that.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:28

I couldn't I couldn't find it. I couldn't find the the cemetery because it's all like it's all scattered. As in his gravestone or the actual cemetery? So the the cemetery is when the priest, he got uh, what are they called in English? They he got burned. Like cremated, cremated. Yeah, so these spots there they they um yeah they put the like the plaques. Yeah, so I couldn't find it. But then that moment I was like, maybe it's not the it wasn't the right time. But then I go, I'll go look for one more time. I walked straight into it and it was right there. It was staring at me at all that time, but I didn't even know. I just went there and said what I had to say. Tell him what I really think. And I said, I'll forgive you. You know, I'll forgive you what you've done. There was a lot of words that came out that I needed to say, where I just wish that he was here for me to say in front of his face. I think that would have been more effective. Like I would have confronted him. What a fucking predator he is.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:40

And then you walk out, and another little experience happened for you when you walked out of the cemetery. Can you tell us about that? The old man?

SPEAKER_04 1:12:50

Yeah, I came out and it was an old old mate. Just didn't know him and just had a chat to me. And the stuff that he said to me, I'm just like, there was the right timing for me. That time, me being there, and I think I don't know, you know, you believe in people that they sort of come and look over you. I think that's what old mate came to say, hey, this is the good moment for you. This is this is where you were supposed to be. This is where you're supposed to come. This is where you were supposed to be today.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:22

And then that I've yeah, that was he said something to you like, hey mate, how's it going? Yeah, and then you just opened up about, yeah, I've just come back from the cemetery. This is what happened to me, and I forgave him.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:36

Yeah, yeah, and just that you just sat there looking at me like okay. But that was a turning point for me, though. Like that was that moment for me to go, I'm ready. I'm actually ready to to tell my story and to help to help other brothers that's going through the same thing. Because I know, I know our culture, a lot of stuff happens behind closed doors, and most people don't talk about it because they're scared. For so many years I didn't say anything. Have kids. The man came to our house and saw my kids. He had more relationship to my kids than my dad. I I let that happen because I didn't say anything. I just let that let that fade off. There's time now, is it just the right moment for me to end it? You know, it's just like when I go and see him, I always think about finishing it. That must have been a lot. So the the hardest thing is just like like when when I moved away and I did my own thing and met my wife, and like he he was it was like he was out of the picture and then seeing him and it was just like it's just like nothing happened. Like he just comes up to you, hello, and he's just like bro, you you know, you you fucking you know you did this to me. But it just for him it was nothing. No sympathy, not sorry, nothing. Just act like nothing happened until he met someone that actually knew he knew what you know what rape was and what what what he'd done was wrong. Him killing himself, it was I think there was a good way of him going. It's nice and yeah. Comfortable.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:34

That's good. I'm glad you are bro. That's how we want you to be.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:38

Alright. Us movement. What was the the foundation of that? How how do you come up with US Movement?

SPEAKER_04 1:15:44

It was a gang, no. I it just um just started off as a Facebook thing, and where the people we had a messenger where people just reach out and talk about trauma and stuff, and uh we had to delete the messenger, the message, because it was just like heavy. People putting stuff in there was just like that you couldn't even like type it. He had to actually see the person in person to talk about it. So yeah, I just deleted the messenger, uh, the messenger, and then just did the Facebook and yeah, just started seeing the brothers face to face. When did your kickle smokement off? 2001 2011, yeah. Something like that, yeah. It was just a word of mouth. I normally explain to them go to the doctors, get your 10 10 appointments for free, and then and then gap it. And then come to me after your 10. But I was still dealing with it too. I was I was going with it as well. I was still getting arrested, getting to trouble at the same time. So everything that I was doing, I was like a I was like a hypocrite. I was telling him something, but I wasn't even doing it. I wasn't even doing it. What changed that is what one of the also said to me, bro, but he just told him to do that, and what are you doing? So I had to do stuff for me to talk to people and say, hey, I actually done that, go and do this. So I didn't want to be a guy that taught caca and then not knowing what I'm talking about. You know what I mean? Like, you know, actually practice what you preach, yeah, 100%. Yeah, yeah. And then I ever since then I just had to keep working on my own. I still am. Like, don't get me wrong, people go, Oh, you're awesome.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:41

But I still every day I I go through stuff, and I think to you, being honest about it, like it's okay that you're not there at that space yet.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:50

You're only human, it's okay taking that ownership of it, yeah, but still wanting to help and heal because there's a lot of people like that, and that's the hardest thing for me is this cannibality because I never did it.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:02

What's one of the things that people need to do when they come and see you? Being honest, yeah. Yeah, being honest and take ownership. Everyone's gonna take the ownership and not the blame game. And what's the mission of US movement?

SPEAKER_04 1:18:16

What you want to achieve? I think right now is this one, everyone's gonna watch this, but I get haters. I get some brothers ring me and say, bro, you're just too honest. The mission is just that it's raw, man. Horse movement is raw, horse movement is it's the truth. Like if you want to help, but we're not here to baby you. We're gonna tell you what's gonna happen. We'll give you the keys and the tools, get yourself out. But if you don't, this is what's gonna happen to you. And I know that a lot of the brothers that come into the horse movement that I've gone see, it's all about relationship. DV, FDV, financial. It's repeative every time, every phone call. I'm gonna end myself because she's doing this and she won't let me see the kids. It's just it's the same thing. If the brothers don't don't own it, we're just gonna go back to the same shit. And we've mean well, I've been there, I've done it. You know, we've and we had to break the cycle. We had to break it for us to move forward. My wife didn't know about it because I didn't have the balls to tell her.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:15

When we were sitting down last week and we're having breakfast and coffee, and while we were there, a man walked into the coffee shop and he recognized you. And you got up and you spent some time talking to him. When you came back to us and you said that you didn't even recognize him, and he's one of the guys that reached out to you for help. Yeah, and you didn't even recognize him because the last time you saw him, he was an addict. Boned. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:44

Yeah. There's moments that my wife will say, turn your phone off. You know, like turn your phone off. Like, don't, you know, we like we get arguments of it because I'm always helping. And when people that's reaching out, I don't go and brag about it on social media because that's this that's their personal space. You know, if I go help a brother, I'll just help him out. I won't go, yeah, you know, put a life and go, hey, this is what walls movement like walls movement's only it's only that in the social media, but it's a lot behind the curtains. We do heaps for the brothers that now we're in with connect kids. Like last week I couldn't come because I had to go and mentor an 11-year-old, and then on that that Sunday I'll get a phone call that the father's beating on the kid, you know, and then I'm jumping in my car to go and save him, and she's like, No, you know, and then that it helps me because I need to stop. And I and I said to her to her, I say, Thank you, honey, thank you for for talking to me because that's my reaction. And when that kid rang me and he's running away from the cops because his father's beating on him, she's like, Stop, stop before you go. And then I had to go, okay, all right, I'm just a mentor, I'll have him on the phone, and then strategy, you know, you work around it on the phone, you don't need to be present, you don't need to be there, you know. And I thank her for that too. Where was the social care?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:10

Social care, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:13

You know, where are they?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:14

If someone rings you up, how does that work? And so people out there in this situation, what's your advice to them and how do you go about talking to them? How do you deal with that?

SPEAKER_04 1:21:27

Now I know how to deal with it. Yeah, yeah, you don't rush in there. I've got to learn to ring the you know, the point of contact, which is the either the police or the the social workers, the like the child protection, whatever they're called. You ring them up first.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:43

Yeah, getting all the information, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:45

Yeah, yeah, before you start jumping in. That night I just had to guide, like, guide him back to the house, make sure he's safe, the cops are there, but then hearing the other side of the story is just like make you think, man, it's just so much corruption in this industry, call it mental health. A lot of the kids out there now they're trapped because they don't have a voice. And having a counselor or a mentor that actually listens to you to make sure that they're in the safe space.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:12

You're helping is your healing, you're helping these people.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:16

Oh, you notice that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:19

That's your healing. Yeah, that's why it's hard for you, I guess, to step back sometimes, but you do need to.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:25

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff that I that I do, and then when I talk to to the brothers, and then they say something, it helps me because I go, Fah real. That's what I need. He just like he doesn't know that, but he he just helped me, you know? Yeah, either with financial or the relationship. Like I said to the brothers, no relationship is perfect. You know, you always gotta have up ups and downs. But the only way to make that relationship go smoother is being honest and having that countability. And the honest thing is the hardest. If you want your way that way, you lie. Yeah, you lie to get your way, and as soon as you get caught, you know, and then that's when the accountability comes in place. Oh, actually, yeah, I did. I did, I did that, you know, I stuffed up, and then it just all depends on you and your partner to go, okay, how as adults, how are we gonna work this? You know, how are you gonna, you know, talk about it? Some relationships are gone too far. They just like no, stuff you. I'm out, I'm taking the kids. And then that's where most of the the brothers fall into that that depression.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:44

For the year 2026, what's the plans for us movement? No more homeless stuff, no.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:53

Uh this yeah, this year we're just gonna not step away from helping the homeless, still help the homeless, but we're not we're not gonna do it as much as what we did every other year. We're trying to focus on more on the kids now, make them understand about anxiety and depression, how depression leads into suicide. Because I I know some of the mental health talk that we do in the schools and the footy clubs last year, I was really disappointed seeing the raising their hands up about you know who knows about depression. And then you got 30 kids saying there's only two kids got their hands up. And then you ask them about suicide, the whole room puts a hand up. Because that's all they know. All they know is suicide. So when they're having a shit day or they can't cope or they can't talk to their parents, you know, or or or lead on the the teacher trying to try to help them and then pushes them to the to do more schoolwork and to the you know, pushes them to their limit, they can't talk about it. The only way to the way to do it is they know the source. Oh, I know how to end this. It's just that one word, sour side. If I don't have my wife next to me supporting me, the straight down, honest truth. My confidence comes from her. It would have been just another guy ringing another group for help. And then you're always gonna attend the meetings, regardless or not. And I think the first step is that you need to put your barriers down and go to it. Because the majority of the brothers they're ring a set up place, I'll go see them. You get there and he's not there because they get scared because they're gonna tell you what's actually going on in their life, or they tell you what's actually happening. And the majority of them are big men, you know, and they hate to see the the vulnerability. They hate looking at you, go, oh far out. You're so big, you should be able to carry those on your shoulders. You know what I mean? Because that's what everyone looks at me at like, oh, look at him. He's like, nah, man, I'm the same as you. I go through shit as the same as you. I'll go through trauma, I'll go through depression. I've had food suicide. I do exactly the same thing as you. But as getting the help and getting the keys and the tools to get to to work around and overcome it. And I think that's the most important thing is that if you don't take those on, then there's no point of helping you. Because we're here to help. And for you to help, you need to help yourself. And the majority of the brothers, they do it and then they think, oh, two weeks, oh sweet. Bro, it could be three weeks, it could be six months, it could be, you know, I got a I got a also that's going on a year and a half, it still rings me. Because it's an ongoing process, it's that lifeline you ring the go-to guy that you know you can trust and talk to and go, oh yeah, bro, this is what's happened. You know, maybe I don't have the answer, but I'll tell you what, we could, you know, work together and feed, feed off each other.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:00

Is there a fine line between these people that come to you, these men, with they've become having dependency of you?

SPEAKER_04 1:27:08

No, yeah, yeah. No, I don't have any of that. No. Once they move on, and like I said to you, the brother, the other also, like he just rings me for things like, oh, what would you do?

SPEAKER_01 1:27:21

Fuck or else it's good because they've got so much respect for you, they just want to yeah, confirm, validate that they're doing the right thing. But these men need to take accountability and start also learning to deal with it themselves without having to come to you every single moment that they're second guessing themselves. And then deal with the consequences of that as well, good and bad. I think a few times, and then I think they've got to take those training wheels off. But unless there's something really bad moment, then yeah, come.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:56

Yeah, so that saying that bad moment I gotta. So I'm actually okay, I've just been helping this uh this Aussie brother in the Gold Coast and he rang me one night and and he's like, So everything's all working for him. Uh he's got his kids back. He's seeing his kids now. Him and his um ex-partner uh comes in good terms now. So everything's working. And he rings me up and he goes, Bro, I just got invited to go to Bali. And it's gonna be like, you know, this and that. And then I said, Oh so who's going? He goes, Oh, you know, the boys. And I said, What boys? Like, tell me. I thought I was your boy, you know, so and he explained to me, oh, this and that, and I said, So tell me, what would you think stuff that you're gonna go there and do, and the stuff that you've stopped doing for these couple of months, and then you're gonna go there, the peer pressure of it, could you handle that? And he's just like, nah. I said, Well, you answered your own question, bro. Don't go. So, yeah, so it was just I didn't even have to go into details with him. He's just like, Oh, yeah, he pretty much said it himself, and and um, yeah, so he just said, No, okay, I'm gonna go.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:14

Yeah, good choice. Get them to see it for themselves, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:17

Yeah, you know, good choice, you know. He's still your mate, you know, you're you're changing, you know what I mean? Like it's like going to a party and everyone's drinking, and say you stop drinking. Yeah, what are you gonna do? You're gonna drink, you know. It's yeah, it's uh guard as you go, no, I don't drink anymore. Oh, come on, bro. Just one, you know. Nah, I've I've quit I've quit for a week now. Oh yeah, I'll probably have one. I'll start again.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:50

I want to ask this question before we get into our closing questions is what does healing mean for you?

SPEAKER_04 1:29:57

Oh geez, that's a big question, but what's healing mean to means for you? Yeah, mean to you, mean for you. Like, there's only one word I can come to mind is my muckles.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:12

That's it.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:14

My my story is it's uh it's that's a massive story, yeah. And I guess it's uh the story that I tell is that hopefully helps another brother to open up and study their healing process.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:29

And then my closing question is what is the meaning of life for you? Muggles.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:36

Muggles, same, yeah, same like I got blessed with six moguls.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:41

My final question for you is if your younger self was listening to this, what would you tell him?

SPEAKER_04 1:30:49

Don't tell your dad.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:50

Tell someone that listened to the bullies of you, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:14

Yeah, I'll fair to be honest, like my younger self just me now, like I've been more open, more spoken. I reckon I wasn't spoken enough. Um, like I said, the language was a real big thing for me back in the days. If I couldn't if if I could learn English a lot more better back then, I reckon I could have conquered it because I could have speaking up more and and just keep drilling it, knowing that you're gonna get a black eye and breaking it, you're still gonna, you know, you're unless you're you're you're talking about it. There's so many things I could change if I've gone back, go back to school and listen, stay in class. There's so many things, man. I wish, but hey, we're here now, so we can only make off the present.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:07

Yeah. Thank you so much for that, man. To be honest, this is probably one of the hardest podcasts that we've done. Like you went so deep.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:18

I wasn't supposed I wasn't, I didn't. I didn't want to, but I didn't, I just felt that Christian you asked. It was just like it was the bang on.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:29

Oh, yeah, yeah. But the the hardest moment, darkest moment in your childhood. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:35

I think that was that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:38

That was if there's anything that we personally, me personally, I can help us movement out with anything that in the future, please reach out. Like, I love what you do. Um, I know you're involved with men's groups and that. I wouldn't mind coming in and sitting in on it, being a part of that here and there.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:57

Outlet for men. Yeah, just to come and talk shit, pretty much, let it all out. Yeah, because it's uh it's a vending, you know, you gotta just because sometimes you you you go through the weeks and and months, not talk about it, but then it just builds up. But no one don't know that. No one doesn't know it. Only you know it. Yeah and if the only way that you to help yourself is actually just talk about it. And I always keep saying this to the brothers, that's the main key of life, man. Is talking. Talk actually saves your life. But most of the brothers don't understand that if you don't talk, talk about it, it's gonna build up, and then you're gonna end up yourself in a real bad spot that you can't take yourself out of it. I remember the time when I hung myself, she's already run the police, I was off it, and I just finished work because I had four jobs four jobs, no, three jobs. So I was doing the morning, afternoon, and a night shift. So I just come back from the night night shift, and it was like like before lunchtime, and we've we've had a massive argument because money was an issues back in the days, and we were just and she's yelling, and and there's just something just come over me, and and I remember her saying like yelling at me at the back doors because the house in in Hamilton is a there was a back door that comes out and then it goes into the garage. So I've come through the back door and she's yelling at me, and the back door is only like from here to there. I swear to God, it felt like she was talking, like yelling at me like on the other side of the field. Because it went and then I could all I could hear it was just like fading away. That was the last thing I remember when I hung myself. That was the last and that's the only thing I could actually share to people is that when you go through that dark place, fucking believe me, there is no turning back, and I'm just dead set on that. When people that's gone and done self-helm and commit suicide, because they don't want to. I don't want to, but something in me was like fuck that time I had enough. I was only 19. Had enough. I'm out. And I just went boom, straight in there. And the cops was on their way anyway. So they're the ones that kicked the door. They got me down. And that's why talking saves life. And if you don't talk about it, it's it's gonna eat you. And I just wish that I had the support. I just wish I had more support back then as we got now. Because man, like the the everyone there now, like they should be appreciated with every sub support system that we got now. Fuck man, we never had that back then. You you had no one to talk to. The only one you talk to is either your brother or or the one that you trust. Because if you talk to to a mate, they're gonna go, oh fuck, did you hear about the bro? And then they talk shit. Yeah, when you go in a dark place, I swear to god, there's no turning back. I thought I was done with it, but then I stabbed myself in our bed because yeah, it just felt because most people don't understand what the fucking suicide is that when you fail on your first one, you you don't feel appreciated. Everyone looked at you weak. And that's true. That's true that everyone looks at you like as much as they go, oh you're okay. You know, oh you know, all you see is negative. When my b my brother was the first one that turned up, he was the first one, and I thought he was my enemy because he was saying all these nice, nice things. In my head, I converted it to negative, and that's truth. That's the truth. Everything everyone that says around you is negative because you failed. You technically failed. So everyone looks at you like you're weak. Look at you, you go on, take your life, you got kids, and blah blah blah. That everything that goes in your head, that's where I explained to the brothers that that what you're thinking is true, is absolutely true. So you need to turn, reverse that and talk about it. Now I know Jim and I was there, like always sure I was okay. And I think the hardest thing it was when they had the people come do the watch at home.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:10

They watch that I don't suicide watch.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:12

Yeah. Like my kids at home. That was the shittest thing, man. And I didn't even think of it. But now you I think of it like fuck how did ever I put myself and my kids in that state? Having another man in the room locked in, make sure that you're taking your tablets that make sure that you're not doing it. So when people talk about suicide, fuck man, like it's serious. It's a serious thing, man. Like, it's not something that everyone they can go, oh, we cater for those people. But the people that do it is people that just don't say anything. It could be your happiest mate, but man, I wasn't happy. Like honestly, I still think about it from this day. I try to go back to what happened, how I got myself into that state, how I just blanked out because that was the last thing I remember her yelling at me, and it felt like it was just like she was on the other side, went to a fade, and then boom, blanked, I was I was out.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:17

You're a person that's got a powerful story, you're a powerful man with even more of a powerful wahine to be there by your side all these years, and that's pure strong Aroha that she has for you. You're a lucky man to have someone there to be there for you for that. Wow, this has been an honor to have you here. Yeah, and you share your story with not just us, but the people that watch and listen this, what you're doing now from your lived experience. People really need to take note of what you've done, how you've done it to learn for themselves. Thank you so much. No, thank you for this. Thank you. Appreciate you, and um, like I said, if there's anything that we can do to help out, in any case, yeah, reach out to us, my bro. Yeah, that's us for now. Thank you for this episode.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:09

It's been we've gone everywhere with this ladies lava, speaker speaker on the world's movement, and you uh love burning bridges.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:35

Okay, do that again.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:37

Watching. Watching or listening. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:41

How does how do you reckon people did say watching, listening, or um what did somebody say you're and you're with burning bridges?

SPEAKER_01 1:40:49

Yeah, and you're with burning bridges, yeah. Covers everything. Listening and is watching, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:54

You're with burning bridges podcasts, or just burning bridges would be away.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:58

Yeah, or you could even say and I'm with burning bridges podcast. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:06

Cool.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:08

Yeah. You're not fighting me there. A fake um okay. So my head I come here.